Interviewee: Thomas A. Riggan

Interviewer: Maurice C. York

Interview Date: June, 20, 2015

Location: Louisburg, N.C.

Length: 01:36:58

Audio Excerpt

Maurice York: My name is Maury York. Today is June 20, 2015. I am interviewing Mr. Tommy Riggan of Louisburg, North Carolina for an oral history of school desegregation in Franklin County, North Carolina, sponsored by the Tar River Center for History and Culture at Louisburg College with funding provided by the North Carolina Humanities Council. Mr. Riggan was the principal of Louisburg High School in 1968, in the fall of 1968, when Franklin County began its total integration of the public schools.

Mr. Riggan, I want to thank you for participating in this project. We really appreciate it.

Thomas Riggan: More than happy to.

MY: I wanted to start by just asking you to tell us a little bit about your background, where you were born and grew up, who your parents were, your education, and that kind of thing.

TR: Okay. I was born in Macon, North Carolina, June 30, 1932. That was back during the days that a lot of births was at home, and that’s where I was born, at home. I grew up in Macon, I went to the public schools in Macon, first grade through twelve, graduated, and was planning on going to Louisburg College. However, my father became ill and I was the only child left at home and I had to stay home and take care of the farm and whatever needed to be done, since he had come down with a heart attack. My mother was a [housewife], she did not work, had not had a public job. She’d always been at home. So I stayed at home for a year and a half before the military–. It came the time I was going to be drafted into the Army, and I did not want to go into the Army so I joined the Navy for four years, in 1952. I left home with a little handbag, got on a bus and went to Raleigh, signed the papers, and late that afternoon I traveled to San Diego, California on a train. This trip took three days.

MY: My goodness.

TR: Yeah. It was pretty rough. Along the way we would pick up other men who had been drafted, were joining, and were going to California. We landed the train in San Diego and I went to boot camp, which was twelve weeks, and then, after that, we had taken a battery of tests to see where we would be best suited at that time. I scored high in the medical field and after I got the results of the test they assigned me to Great Lakes, Illinois where they had training for new Navy men who were going into the Medical Corps. It was six months and we had intense training, learning to do most anything that a nurse would do. As I say, I was there about six months, and then after that I had a furlough of twenty days, went home, and then went back to San Diego, California and got more orders, and from there I went to a place called Vallejo, California and was assigned to an emergency room, helping doctors give examinations, drawing blood, everything that a nurse would do. After six months my commander called me in and said, “Tommy, you are being transferred to the Marines,” and I was shocked. He said, “The Marines do not have a medical corps so the Navy, we have to take care of the Marines, so you have been picked to go to Korea.”

MY: Oh, my goodness.

TR: So, first of all, then we had to go out into the desert and had combat training, which was really, really tough, but I made it. I got back to the base and was getting ready to pack my bag–.

[Break in recording]

TR: So I began to pack my bags, after I had combat training, and the day before I was set to go to Korea the commanding officer called me in and he said, “Tommy, the war in Korea has ended. You will not have to go. We’re sending you to Japan,” and of course I was elated. So we left on a ship out of–. Well, we went by plane to Washington, the state of Washington, where we were going to embark to go to Japan, and there was a transport ship with probably three thousand, sleeping on little bunks that were five high. So it took us nineteen days to get to Japan. I was sick eighteen of the nineteen days.

MY: Oh, my goodness.

TR: I was just dizzy, couldn’t eat. I survived off of crackers and water and maybe a little juice. I was never so glad to see land in my life. So I went straight to the place, it was a little place called [00:06:55], and it was a little town called [00:06:58] and [00:06:59 Yamanakako], and I was at Camp McNair, which was a base with mostly Marines and medical personnel. It’s one of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen in my life. We were right at the bottom of Mt. Fuji.

MY: Oh, really?

TR: And then at the base they had a deep valley, and when it rained and the clouds came the clouds were just floating by in the valley, and it just–. So how can you not know there’s a savior somewhere? Then I served my–. I was going to stay probably twenty-two months and, I can’t remember the date, but I had been there probably a year and my commanding officer called me in and said, “Tommy, how is your family? How is your daddy doing?” I said, “Well, so far as I know he’s doing okay.” He said, “Well, he’s passed away.”

[Break in recording]

I got word that my father had died and my commanding officer made plans for me to fly to California, and I was to get help at California to fly into Raleigh-Durham or Richmond, whichever place I could get, and I flew on a military plane and there were these bucket seats so it wasn’t very comfortable. But the trip lasted, I forgot how many hours, but we landed in Midway Island, which is very small, and we just stayed there to refuel and then landed in California. I had no money except what they had given me, a little bit, in Japan, so I went to the Red Cross and to another organization, and I can’t remember which, but they would not give me any help, and that’s the reason I was a little upset with the Red Cross for a number of years. However, I called my uncle and he wired me some money right away, so I flew into Richmond, Virginia.

My four brothers met me and told me, you know, that they had had the funeral, but they saved Daddy’s body till I got there, at the funeral home. So we talked and we got home, and my mother and all were out in the front yard, and when I got out, you know, I thought I was going to be all to pieces, but somehow the Lord made me smile. And my mother, as I say, I smiled at her and she returned the smile, and we talked. The whole family was there, of course. Then we went over to the funeral home for me to view the body, and I did that, and I did very well because I wanted to be strong for my mother. So, we viewed his body for awhile, and then we the whole family came back home and in a few days my brothers all went back to their respective homes. My sister stayed for a little bit longer, we stayed together, and I stayed home probably thirty days, and then I rode a train back to California, to Vallejo, where I stayed for–. No, excuse me. I need to back up a little bit. That was wrong. I went back to Japan instead of Vallejo, California.

MY: Okay.

TR: So I flew back to Japan, but on the way we stopped at Hawaii, and there was a layover for a short time and there was a commanding officer that needed to get to Japan and they asked me if I would mind staying in Hawaii three days.

MY: [Laughs]

TR: I said, “Not at all. I will be more than happy to stay.” [Laughs] So I stayed there for three days and had a great time. Then another military plane came in about three days and I flew back to [Japan], and was met by some of the military personnel who drove me back out to base, the military base. Then, we knew that it was not having to train to be in a war, but we did have a lot of training in the boondocks. We would go out sometimes for ten days. I never will forget, that first time we were going out for two weeks, it was raining, it started raining, and you know you have these little pup tents you sleep in, and I was the medical personnel for the whole group, and being the hospital corpsman I had to get latrines dug and that type of [thing, build] the latrines, and had to inspect where the mess hall was going to be. During that encounter I was with the firing squad and the Howitzer guns, which were powerful, and one of the Marines was fixing to shoot the thing and he caught his arm in the gadget when it went forward and he couldn’t move, so I had to–. They called for me and I gave him a shot of morphine and finally got his arm out and they took him back to the base, and luckily it did not do a lot of damage but he was in a lot of pain until that shot. The training didn’t last a full ten days because it was so bad so we went back to the base.

While I was there I got to visit a lot of places. I went to Tokyo to hear Dr. Graham, and the stadium was filled to overflowing and that was just–. I can’t explain how I felt. It just gave me a lot of boost and a lot of energy, and my faith just spurted more because he was just a dynamic speaker. We had about three or four busloads of Marines and a few corpsmen that went with them. Then I stayed there until my time was up and I was shipped back to California, what they call the “mustering out.” You go and you get mustered out and you had to get checked. You had to get papers signed and get your discharge and all. So, I did that, and then I came back home to Macon and started – didn’t know what I was going to do.

MY: Let me just ask you, your father was a farmer?

TR: Yeah, he was a farmer and also a mail carrier, a rural mail carrier.

MY: Okay.

TR: Yeah, and my mother was just at home until my father died and then when he died, after awhile, she started working at Leggett’s Department Store, and she worked there until she retired. I came back from Japan and, as I said, I didn’t know what I wanted to–. I wanted to go to college, I knew that, and then I had the GI Bill, so I went to Louisburg College and I got accepted and started, and of course I graduated from a small high school. We only had fifty in the whole high school, at Macon, and that was the last year they had a high school. There were nine in my graduating class. So I had as much training as they could give, and Ms. [00:16:32], I will never forget her, she taught me English, and I never could figure out her numbers on her page, [00:16:40 like 724 or 30] you know, but she knew what it was. But she was very instrumental in my pursuing–. One time I thought, “Well, I’m just not going to make it. I think I’ll go back and join the Navy again.” But I didn’t. She talked to me a long time, and Dr. Robbins, so I stayed and got a very good education; went from there to East Carolina and graduated from East Carolina in 1961, and I majored in science and minored in social studies.

After I left there–. I worked in the summers down at Virginia Beach at the Cavalier Beach Club, and there you meet a lot of people that were in charge of business and so forth, and I met this man who was at a pharmaceutical place in Richmond and he said, “When you graduate, you get in touch with me. I want you to be a field representative for me.” It was called Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals.

MY: Right.

TR: So I went, got hired, got in my car, told my mother goodbye, drove to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and there we had a training for a couple of days. I would leave home on Monday morning, would come back Friday night; I did that for a month and I said, “This is not for me.” I said, “But I’m going to give it a try for a whole year.” So I did, I tried. I went from Miami, Florida all the way up to West Palm Beach and all the little places in between. [So], after the year, I wrote and told the manager that I didn’t believe this was the right job for me, that I was going to pursue education.

So I left there and went back home and got in touch with Mr. John Newell, principal at Aycock School in Vance County, and I got hired as a science teacher. I taught for four and a half years, well, four years and part of another year, because I was assistant principal to him and he wanted me to take over as principal when he left and he was fixing to retire. So then I started to work at East Carolina on my principal’s certificate, then I’d have to go down sometime on weekends to get the classes in. I finished that within two years and I was principal at Aycock School in 1967, and my wife at that time was teaching third grade. So–.

MY: Was she teaching in Henderson too?

TR: Yeah, she was teaching at Aycock School. That’s where I met her.

MY: Right.

TR: So I came–. [Clears throat] Excuse me. [Sips water] I came and interviewed with Mr. Smith and a board member, but I can’t remember his name.

MY: This was Warren Smith,–

TR:Warren Smith.

MY: –the superintendent?

TR: Yeah, Superintendent Warren Smith, and we interviewed for an hour or so. Then they wanted me to interview with the – I forgot what you call them now, at the high school. It was five people that were–. I can’t remember what they called them, but anyway the ones that looked over the schools and helped the teachers, and talked to parents and so forth. So I interviewed with them and went back to Aycock, and Mr. Smith called me and he said, “Well, we have nominated you for the principal and the board will be meeting tonight and we’ll let you know,” so they did, they accepted me as their principal, and then I had to get somebody to help us move and find a place to live in Louisburg, and we lived out at, I think it was Hillcrest Acres, right out of town here on the right-hand side. We lived there.

We got things settled, and we had a child, a six-month-old child, my son, Allen, and we were just worn out, so I said, “Well, let’s go down to Wrightsville Beach for three or four days and just relax.” So we did, and we stayed about four or five days and came back to Louisburg, and that’s when I really got hit hard. Mr. Smith, Warren Smith, called me in and said, “Tommy, I got some news for you. Franklin County Schools are now totally integrated. Judge Algernon Butler has said all schools will integrate in Franklin County,” and Charles Davis says we were the first county in North Carolina to totally integrate.

MY: Right. So you had been hired on a different basis. Tell me about that.

TR: Okay. When I was hired at Louisburg there were about five hundred students and it was grades one through twelve. I did not know anything about the–. I didn’t know about the many times that Mr. Smith and Mr. Yarborough and Mr. Davis had gone to talk with Judge Butler about keeping it as token integration and not totally integrating, but he wouldn’t listen. He just had his mind made up that next year will be total integration, and they had two or three meetings. But at that time I had not met the teachers or anybody because it was in June or July, and–. Or it must have been July and August, because when I came back from the beach we had nine days to integrate all the systems in the county. Louisburg and Riverside was going to be one, Perry’s and Gold Sand was going to be another one, and then Bunn and Gethsemane was going to be one, and Youngsville was one, but they didn’t have as many African Americans as we did, but I think in years they – they still did not have as many.

But we had nine days, so we had to hire some teachers. I remember Mr. Eric Morgan, he was very instrumental in helping get desks moved, books and everything, had to hire extra people, and Mr. Robert Lee Grissom was the custodian at that time and he was just a big help, big help. What happened though, we didn’t have the room in the buildings. It was supposed to be a school for about six hundred students. So, they began to move in trailers. On the back of the high school they had seven mobile units. They had seven or eight over near the Mills building, where the elementary school was. We were preparing for grades five through twelve so the small building where the elementary kids were was grades five, six, seven, and eight. Yeah, I think it was, or six, seven, and eight. I’m not sure, but anyway it was more students than we had room for.

MY: Right.

TR: So we had to use the auditorium, use the front of the auditorium as a classroom. We used the stage as a classroom. We used part of the lunchroom and, speaking of the lunchroom, we did not serve lunch until November. Students came to school at 8:00 in the morning, they stayed till 1:00, and then they went home, and that went on for August, September, October, until about the middle of November, and we started serving lunches.

MY: How did you make up that time, or did you have to make it up?

TR: We did not have to make it up. Mr. Smith talked to, I don’t know whether Mr. Phillips was the state superintendent–. Anyway, he talked to the superintendent and they approved the schedule. Since it happened so quickly, and we had to move in all the equipment and all the new mobile homes and things, we just didn’t have time and so we put in full hours from 7:30 [until 1:00], and then the teachers were–. We had several meetings to try to get to know each other and to let people speak their minds to what they had seen and what changes we needed to make, and I was a good listener. I listened and took notes and tried to do what I thought was best for the whole school and the community. I never showed any favoritism. I remember so many times that if an African American student came to me, or a white student, I fed them out of both hands. I did not make any distinction, and I know the Lord helped me in doing that. Other people that helped me were Mr. Teo Anderson, Mr. Warren Massenburg, Preacher Jones, Norwood Jones, and several other people. They met with me in Mr. Teo Anderson’s house and we discussed and they asked me what did I want them to do. They said, “We want to make your job as comfortable and easy as possible,” and they said, “We’re going to back you and we’re going to help you, and we’re going to be there if you have some rowdy African Americans, and the whites, if you have any rowdies, we’re going to help you get the situation straight and make it as easy as possible,” and they did. I would not have been able to make it if it had not been for those people.

MY: Did they meet frequently?

TR: Yes. Yes, they did, and Judge Hobgood and Ms. Hobgood absolutely made my life so much easier. Ms. Hobgood, you know, was just an angel, just absolutely. Can you cut it off a minute?

[Break in recording]

MY: Mr. Riggan, you mentioned that you met with the teachers and listened to them to get their ideas about how to work things out. Tell me about some of the teachers’ attitudes and their thoughts and feelings.

TR: All right, I’m not going to mention some of the teachers’ names, because I had good relationship with them but some of them were very unhappy with the way things were going. One of the things that bothered the African American teachers was, when we signed up for classes, we did it in the auditorium and you had the table where you come up and sign, and when you have a certain amount you start another list. Well, several of the teachers – I know of two teachers – that all her geometry class was African American. In fact both of her classes were African Americans, except for one white student, and the others were a business math class – I think it’s what she taught – and it was mostly black except for two or three whites, and they were concerned that we were allowing students to sign up and evade the black teachers and go to the white teachers, such as Mr. Morgan, Ms. Lloyd – which was Ms. Arnold at that time – Ms. Leonard – and she was a jewel. Ms. Leonard invited all of them to come to her. But teachers had somewhat of an attitude, and I could understand. They didn’t want to come any more than the students wanted to come. They had their school, they had a good school, and they didn’t want to come, but they knew they were there and if they wanted to work they had to stay there, unless they wanted to go somewhere else.

But most of them were concerned with not having white students in their classes, and two or three of the students would come in to class the first day or two with a Confederate flag tie or something of that nature, and of course they sent them to the office and I called their parents and sent them home and told them that was not attire that they should be wearing and we needed to make things go as easy as possible and as smooth as possible. They finally decided to cooperate, not a hundred percent, not ninety percent, but they began to come around to where we wanted them to, most of the time. But the faculty as a whole, quickly the African American teachers and the white teachers, they got along and you only had two or three that maybe did not get on board, and they only stayed one year. I had three or four that only stayed one year and moved on to somewhere else.

MY: Were these African American teachers?

TR: Yes.

MY: What was the balance of teachers, roughly?

TR: About fifty-fifty.

MY: Okay.

TR: Yeah, at that time. I think that we had twenty-seven teachers and Riverside had about thirty teachers. In the meantime Mrs. Anderson was already there as a librarian, and another African American teacher. They came before it was mandated. They volunteered to come, because they knew they had some black students so they volunteered to come.

MY: This was Edith Anderson?

TR: Edith Anderson, yeah, and I can’t remember the black man because he was not there the next year, when I became principal. So, things–. It was rough the first year. I mean it was really [rough]. I went into the halls every time the bell would ring because, you know, at that time if you bumped somebody it was subject to a fight, and we had some skirmishes, but, I was probably the smallest person there, but I never, ever ran away from a fuss or fight. If somebody even looked like they were arguing I would get right there and say, “Uh-uh, we’re not going to have that,” because I was a person that was in the hall every time that bell would ring, and I would wait and eat my lunch after everybody was in class. [Laughs] I had to eat real fast. But the first year and the second year, and then the third year –can we talk about that?

MY: Yes.

TR: The third year Mr. Marshall and myself wanted to go to a national principals’ convention, and I think it was in Dallas, Texas.

MY: Now, who was Mr. Marshall?

TR: Mr. James Marshall was the principal at Gold Sand High School.

MY: Okay.

TR: We decided we wanted to go and Mr. Smith, Warren Smith, the superintendent, was a little bit hesitant but I said, “Well, I think Mr. Conway,” who was my assistant principal at that time, “with the teachers, I think things will be [all right].” We were going to be gone for three school days. So, that was on a–. I’m not sure whether we left on a Friday. Anyway, we were gone, and the next week, the first day of school, Mr. Conway was in charge, Mr. Twitty, Tommy Twitty, who was a P.E. teacher, was there to help, and Mr. Morgan, and my ag teachers, Mr. Tom Cofield and Mr. James Rogers. They were very good with handling the African Americans.

So I got a call from, I’m not sure if it was Mr. Smith or from Earl, the guy in charge of the federal program. I can’t think of his last name. He said, “They’re having a big mess up at Louisburg High School and Mr. Smith would like for you to come home.” That was at 12:00 at night. He said, “Get on the quickest plane that you can and come back home.” So we, Mr. Marshall and myself, we packed our bags and went out to the airport and got a flight, and we got to Raleigh-Durham Airport at 7:00 in the morning, and then Earl – Martin is his name – told us what happened and what was going on, and he said, “It’s ugly.”

MY: Now, what year was this?

TR: That was ’71 or ’72. I’m not sure of that. It was not while you were there, was it?

MY: Well, I remember some kind of uprising in the halls, but I don’t know whether it’s what you’re talking about or not, but it may have been ’71.

TR: Yeah. Well, we landed, and of course we hadn’t shaved or eaten so I went home and dropped off my bag and came right to the school. All the students, all the blacks, were out in the halls, they were out in the yard, they were roaming around, because they could not get them to go to class. They wouldn’t go, and they said, “We’re not going until Mr. Riggan gets here.”

MY: Well, what was their concern?

TR: Okay, what started it, the last period of the day a lot of students had study hall. In a classroom where three white girls were working and doing homework or whatever, three or four black girls came by and knocked on the door and wanted to come in and they wouldn’t let them in. They were scared, so they say. So, that’s what started it, and they went to Mr. Conway and told [that] they were not allowed to get in the classroom and they deserved to be in there as much as anybody else and they wanted something done about it. So Mr. Conway, or whoever, opened the door and the black girls rushed in and started fussing at the girls, and of course the girls got scared. So at that time I think they called Mr. Smith and he said, “Turn out school.” So school was dismissed and then the next day is when it all started really bad. They had Mr. Smith, the assistant state superintendent, the police chief, the sheriff, a couple of board members, and I think that was the gist of it. So I came in, and the students were milling around out there in the office area. Do you remember that box, as you walked in the building, that little place to sit?

MY: Right.

TR: Okay. They were standing out there, sitting on the benches, and when I came I said, “Get down off of there. Let’s get down,” and so they did, and I said, “I’m going to be in here with a meeting and I’ll be back out and let you know what is going to happen.” So I walked in and got in my chair. They saved my chair for me. They didn’t get in my chair. So I sat down and I folded my arms, and then I turned around with my chair and I looked out the window, and then turned back around, and I said, to Superintendent Smith and the assistant state superintendent and all of them, I said, “Am I still principal of the high school?” They said, “Yes, you are.” I said, “Well, then this is what we’re going to do.” I said, “We are going to have lunch, all the students that want to are going to eat lunch, and when they finish lunch they’re going to get on the bus and they’re going home, and then they’re going to come back tomorrow and I’m going to take over and I will meet in the auditorium with all students.” The assistant state superintendent said, “Well, that is the best idea I have heard since this started.” So I went outside then and stood up [there] and I told them, I said, “Now, everybody be quiet. Don’t say a word. I’m going to tell you what’s going to happen.” So I talked to them and told them, I said, “We’re going to eat lunch. After lunch you get your books and go to your bus. We’re dismissing school. We’re going home early.” They said, “Yes, sir,” and most of them took off and went to the lunchroom.

Meantime, they had had a paddy wagon. Did I tell you about the paddy wagon?

MY: No.

TR: They had a paddy wagon out on the street, ready to come in and load up the students to take them to jail.

MY: Oh, my goodness.

TR: The first thing I said, I said, “I want that paddy wagon moved. I don’t want it here.” So Sheriff Dement got it moved, because I said, “I don’t want the students seeing it.” Also, there was a–. As the students were getting on the bus there was a photographer from WRAL that had come up on the school grounds and he was getting out of his car. I said, “Get back in your car. There are no pictures to be taken.” No, he wasn’t in his car. He left his car on the road. I said, “Go back to your car,” and he started–. I said, “Get moving!” and he didn’t, so I started running after him, [Laughs] and he took off, and Mr. Smith, till he died, told that story about those little legs of mine– [Laughs]

MY: [Laughs]

TR: – running after this [guy.]

But anyway, on Monday, or the next day, I got things started in school, got classes going, and I told everybody, “You are not to be in the hall. You’re to be in your class. If you’re not in your class you’re going to have to answer to me.” So they–.

MY: Now, what about the meeting? Did you have the meeting in the auditorium–

TR: Yes, I did.

MY: –the next day?

TR: I had that meeting and it went well. The students were quiet.

MY: What did you say to them?

TR: I just told them that what had happened was not our doing. I said, “I know the students from Riverside did not want to come here and our students didn’t want to integrate,” I said, “This is something that the federal law has said we have to do, and we have to make the best of it,” and I said, “And I don’t care if you’re red, yellow, pink, or what, I’m going to treat you just like anyone else. I’m going to feed you out of the same hand,” and I said, “And you can remember that and you can tell your parents that I am going to back you if you are right, or if you’re wrong I’m going to deal with you, and that goes for everybody.” I don’t know, I just talked and talked, and I prayed, I had a prayer with them, which later on they said was against the law but, you know, I didn’t pay any attention to that. I prayed until the day I left Louisburg High School in 1988. Every time I had an assembly I prayed.

But, what I did, I picked out–. I knew who were the troublemakers, so I picked them out, and I knew who those four girls, and the three girls, were. So I called them in, the four black girls, and I said, “Your mothers or your fathers will meet me in Mr. Smith’s office tomorrow morning and we will decide what we are going to do about this [situation], but we don’t want this to happen again because it’s a blemish on our school.” And the white girls, I met with them and their parents. So I ended up suspending two blacks and two whites for three days, suspended from school. I told the parents, and they all agreed with me. One wasn’t exactly a hundred percent with me but I said, “Well, now, you can appeal,” I said, “But this is it: I think this is the fairest thing to do with what just happened and we want to make a school where everyone gets along and have a good year. Even our first year, we want to have a good year.”

So, things began to quiet down. I still had a fight every once in awhile. You know, somebody would push somebody, or somebody would say something. But I did not want to suspend anybody ten days or a week or more, you know, and I was very lenient and I got some criticism, but I got praise from the parents and some of the people in the black community, I got praise from them, and I really think I did the right thing. In fact I know I did because the school, as years progressed, things began to fall in place. I think the second year or the third year we had a junior-senior prom in the gym. Did we have one when you were there?

MY: Yes.

TR: Okay, in the gym, so people then said, “You cannot.” I said, “Watch us.” I had blacks working on it, I had whites working on it, and things really just began to gel.

On a side note, I don’t know whether the other schools were integrated but we had a basketball game in Rocky Mount, and I had my Chevy II, which the students drove more than I did, but I was going to the game and a couple black students asked me, “Mr. Riggan, we want to go and we don’t have a way.” I said, “Well, come and go with me.” So I took five black students with me to the ballgame in Rocky Mount, and in Rocky Mount–. They hadn’t eaten, so I said, “We’ll stop here at Hardee’s.” When I walked in Hardees with five blacks, you should have seen the expression. It kind of tickled them, the black [kids], and I sat there and I talked with them and carried on just like I’d been doing all my life. Nothing happened, but when we got back out there they said, “Wasn’t that something? I never expected to see this happen, Mr. Riggan, as soon as it did, but we know now that you care about the black students, or white students, all your students.”

I really had a–. I don’t need to brag, I’m not bragging, but I really a good rapport with the black community, I would say ninety-four or -five percent that I had good rapport and good relations and of course, as time went on, things got better. They began to communicate with each other. They were on committees and yearbook and things like that and things just began to gel. I lost a lot of sleep. My stomach was–. I think I developed a small ulcer. But, if I did, it was worth it, because I felt like that things had finally settled down, the teachers had confidence in me, I had confidence in them, and if I had a problem and I’d call them in, you know, they talked just like you and myself, and I said, “Why don’t you try this, or try this?” and they would.

So, I just–. I really think that God called me to Louisburg because–. I had a chance to leave in about six years. The doctor down at East Carolina called me and said, “Tommy, there’s a new school opening up at–.” Anyway, it was the county next to the Wrightsville Beach area, or pretty close, and I said, “Oh, man! That’s where I’ve always wanted to go.” So I went home and talked with Martha and she said, “Well, that’s good. We ought to go.” I said, “But you know, I can’t leave. I have–.”

[Break in recording]

I said, “You know, if I left now I’d feel like the African Americans and the whites all would think I was letting them down.” I said, “We have built so much community togetherness, we have done so many good things.” I said, “I just really think that I’m going to stay here.”

In the meantime – I’m going to go back a minute –

MY: Sure.

TR: –there was a group of white parents that wanted me to leave and called a big meeting.

MY: Now, when was this?

TR: This was in probably–. Let’s see, [Counts years] probably ’74, I think, about ’73 or ’74, and they wanted to meet with the board and wanted me there, and they wanted to ask questions and so forth. Maury, sometimes I can be very stubborn. I said, “These people are trying to pull something over on me, and I’m not going to let them do it,” and I said, “And I’m going to tell it like it is.” So we met and – which is ugly in me – I turned my back to them. I was facing the board, because that’s what I was there for, the board, and I just sat there and [faced the board], and the board asked me a lot of questions and I answered them, and then they asked the audience if they had any questions they wanted to ask, and they asked, and I would turn around and answer it and so forth.

MY: What were they concerned about?

TR: Not treating – not disciplining the black students and disciplining the white students, and all the teachers were not qualified, just mostly things that I had been evaluating, and Mr. Smith was okay with it and the board. I probably at times did give a little inch or two to the African American students because they were facing more, really, because the other kids had been there. They had left their school, they came there. But I did not go overboard with it. To give an example, black parents backed me, as I said, ninety-some percent. I called this mother and I told her, I said, “Your daughter is acting up and is really misbehaving.” She said, “I’ll be there in ten minutes.” She came in the door, she said, “Where is she?” I said, “Right here.” She had a belt, and she popped her and she said, “Now, you know what’s going to happen if this ever happens again,” [and she said,] “Yes, ma’am.” So I said, “I’ll take care of it from here.” So she [didn’t have] any more problems and she was just as friendly to me as she could be.

One of the biggest problems that we had, at lunchtime or at break – I think this is okay to say – is back females. They would have a – because one had said something to her boyfriend, and then they just came together, and fight, pulling hair, and Ms. Hobgood and myself were there to break up the fights, you know. So we had, and I just had–. The girl almost threw me over her shoulder, she was so strong. So we finally – and I just told the students, I hollered really loud, “Get out of here! Get back to your rooms!” and then I told Ms. Daniels, I said, “Ring the bell. Ring it.” So I got Ms. Hobgood to take one of the girls in her office and I took the one that was really [Huffs and puffs] just mad, but I had a good rapport with her, so I said, “Come in here and you sit down in this chair, right here,” and she was just puffing. [Demonstrates]

I had a baseball bat over here on the wall, I don’t know what it was in there for. It may have been in case somebody [misbehaved]. But anyway, she sat down, and I said, “Now, tell me what this is all about,” and [she said] “This girl had been talking about me, talking ugly,” and just going on and on, and she was still huffing and puffing and just mad. I said, “Okay, now you just settle down. I’m here to listen to your side of the story and to evaluate it, and we’re going to decide what’s going to happen.” So, she began to tell me, and we talked, and I said, “Well, I understand.” I said, “I’ll be back in a minute,” and I went in the teachers’ lounge and got a Pepsi-Cola and a pack of Nabs and walked in and I said, “Now, you drink this Pepsi and eat these Nabs,” and she looked at me: “Mr. Riggan, for real?” I said, “Yeah, sure. Go ahead.” And then, I had told her about this baseball bat, and after she was about halfway through she said, “Mr. Riggan, would you have hit me with that bat?” I said, “Just as sure as you’re sitting there.” [Laughs]

MY: [Laughs]

TR: Of course I wouldn’t have. [Laughs] She said, “Would you?” I said, “Well, probably not, but you better not come in here again.” [Laughs] These two girls, after that, Mrs. Hobgood talked to them, I suspended them one day, and in fact I think it was that day. I just sent them home for the rest of the day and they came back and they got along fine, and now they’re good friends.

MY: What was the outcome of that meeting that the parents had with the board of education?

TR: The outcome, they were a little bit upset that I didn’t turn completely around, but I explained to them my philosophy, I explained to them that–. I said, “I don’t look at color. I don’t look at somebody in the exceptional children’s program or anything, or the way they dress.” I said, “I look at them as a child of God, a child that’s sent here, under my supervision, to see that he or she gets the best education possible.” I said, “If you think I am unfair with your children,” I said, “Come in and sit down and talk with me.” I said, “I’ll be glad to discuss it and talk with you.” I said, “But I don’t intend to change my philosophy and the way that I am teaching these students, and talking and working with them at Louisburg. I don’t intend to stop.” After we talked, and the board talked back and forth, they dismissed and some of them came over and talked to me, shook my hand, and said, “We’re going to work with you, and if you need any help call us,” and they said, “We’ll do what we can.” But I think maybe a couple of them, or three of them, at the end of the year, pulled their child out and went to a private school, I think.

MY: Right. Well, you’ve done a great job of giving a lot of information, but I had some specific questions that I wanted to ask too–. Go ahead.

TR: Can I tell you something about graduation?

MY: Absolutely.

TR: That was my pride and joy, and Ms. Anderson and myself, we worked together, she with the piano, you know, and decorating. The first year was just bedlam. The blacks were not used to being quiet when the – clapping when the kids received diplomas. So, I did not know how to react to that, that first year, so as I would call the students up, some of them would come down and take their seats to take pictures. So, I didn’t want to act ugly, so when the students came back they got up and went back, and they–. So I decided to make a rule. I said, “There will be no picture taking during ceremonies. There will be no clapping or hollering when I call out their names.” I said, “If you do, I will stop the graduation and we’ll dismiss the audience and we will go over into the other building and give out diplomas.” I said, “Now, if that’s what you want, you go ahead and you clap,” I said, “But what I’m telling you is going to happen.” And, believe it or not, it worked. We always had one or two, near the end or something, but I had that rule the whole time, and my wife and daughter were sitting over there next to the door, and she said, “Every time you got up I was just shaking because I didn’t know what you were going to say or do.” She said, “The whole time you were there as principal.” But anyway, it just took a little education, a little telling of what I would expect and so forth, so after that things went well.

MY: That’s great. I wanted to ask you about Warren Smith and how you viewed him as a superintendent.

TR: Well, he was the second superintendent I had. As a superintendent he was an absolute number one gentleman and [01:02:37 principal], fair as the day is long, and he always gave good advice, and if he saw something that he thought you ought to change he would say, “Why don’t you try this and see how it works? If it doesn’t, go back to your other way and we’ll see how it works out.” But I never had any problems with going to ask him questions or to give me some suggestions and he was just a well-rounded gentleman, a topnotch educator, and was very concerned with all his school children, as he called them. I got along exceptionally well with him and, till the day he died, we were absolutely the best of friends. He even gave me a row in his garden to plant vegetables. [Laughs] And of course I had his children, Jackie and Woody, and we got along great. They thought a lot of me and I thought a lot of them. We lived, one time, right across the street from them for awhile. But Mr. Smith was one of the fairest and greatest people in education that I ever worked with.

MY: So you feel that he was a good person to be superintendent during this time.

TR: Without a doubt. I don’t think we could have picked a better one, and he wasn’t one of these that jumped and said, “You do this, you do that.” He said, “I’m leaving it to you. If you need me, I’m here,” and of course he visited the school. He came by, unannounced, and walked through to see how things were going. So, I couldn’t have picked a better place than Louisburg High School under the direction of Superintendent Smith.

MY: That’s great. One thing that I wanted to ask you about was the first day, back in the fall of 1968. What was that like? What was going on that day?

TR: That was the most nervous I have ever been in my life. I was in my office, I was [pacing], walking around, waiting for the first bus to arrive, and we also had some parents that didn’t want [01:05:18 integration] to come, and they even had somebody from the state department to come the first day to check and see if we had enough restroom facilities for twelve hundred students.

MY: This was the State Department of Public Instruction?

TR: Well, it was whoever was in facilities, whoever was in charge of facilities, such as restrooms, and lunchroom, and water fountains and so forth. They came in, and they looked around and gave a report, and while they were doing that I asked some parents coming around, I just told them, “Now, we’re having students. Don’t get in the way of the students.” The first busload of students came up, the door opened, all black; had these big medallions. I said, “Mm hmm. Okay.” Here they come, they get off [the bus], and when they came in I said, “Okay, go to the board here and you will see where your name is and that’s the room that you’re to report to,” and I said, “I have some students and some people here to tell you where these rooms are.” Just about every bus that came in had these medallions and, I don’t know what we had, about eight buses. I’m not sure exactly. But all of them, except for about three, had all black students and three or four whites that didn’t have any way to get to school.

MY: What were these medallions about?

TR: Okay. It was a fad before they came. It was a fad; it was a very big medallion. So we met after they all got there, then of course after they got to their homerooms we went to the auditorium. I guess you remember that. I don’t know.

MY: You know, I don’t.

TR: Okay.

MY: I don't.

TR: Well anyway, I met with the students and told them how we were going to select their subjects, and the teachers would be signing them up, and I went over some rules and regulations, and then I told them then, I said, “Now, this is new for all of us, and if you have a problem you come to me and I can assure you I will look into it and handle it, and it will be to my satisfaction.” So at that time, I had gotten a medallion from somebody, and I pulled it out and I said, “Now, I want you to look at this.” I said, “This is a weapon. You can hurt somebody. You could kill somebody with this medallion.” I said, “They will not be worn at Louisburg High School on any occasion at any time.” I said, “Now, if you wear it tomorrow, you will be sent back home with the medallion and you will not return until you follow my rules and don’t wear the medallion.”

I had no problems with them, not any problems, and of course I was just amazed at how the black parents treated me. I worked all my life around blacks. As I said, when I went in the Navy, my bunk mate was black. I got along with him fine. We did things together. It was just instilled in me by my parents: they’re humans; they’re people just like you. Now, I had some days at Louisburg that I was [01:09:24], you know, and I went in my office–. I would tell Ms. Daniels, I said, “Ms. Daniels, don’t let anybody in the office for fifteen minutes.” I’d go in there and pray, and I know it was answered. It’s bound to have, because my eighteen and a half years said something, because I wouldn’t have stayed if everything was in an uproar all the time.

MY: Right. Going back to that first day, were there observers there? Tell me about that.

TR: We had observers there from the state department, observers from the community, people from the town that didn’t have children but wanted to come and see how things were going, but none of them troublemakers. They just wanted to look. In fact, I can’t even remember the man’s name that was there, and I said, “What are you doing up here?” He said, “Well, I’m just looking around, Mr. Riggan. I just wanted to see.” I said, “Okay. Help yourself.” But they milled around for awhile, and they wanted to check the bathrooms, and they wanted to check classrooms and look and see how many blacks was in there, how many whites, and so forth. The first day I just let them do it, until we got ready to go to assembly and then after that I let them–. I told them we were going to start the school day now and I’d appreciate it if they would finish up their visitation and let us go on with our business. That day went a lot smoother than I thought but I was still, of course my stomach was just churning all the time. [Laughs]

MY: I’m sure it was.

TR: And I tell you, I had a lot of good students that helped. They were calm, they were not against blacks; they were just a group of students, and I had picked three or four black students that I knew, had been introduced to, that came and helped, and if they spotted any hot spots they would call me. But overall, you know, I was just amazed at how well it went.

MY: That’s wonderful. Did you get any threats during this early part of integration from the public, anything like that?

TR: I received no threats. Now, I received–. A lot of people had sent word that they were going to talk to the superintendent about certain things if it didn’t change, like sports for instance, if their child didn’t get picked for the sports – girls’ basketball, boys’ basketball – but football, I think they were glad to get them because there were some good football players. [Laughs]

MY: [Laughs]

TR: But–. [Pauses] Cut it off.

[Break in recording]

MY: One thing I wanted to ask about was the senior trip. There was a tradition of taking senior trips. Do you remember how integration affected that, or did it affect that tradition?

TR: What do you mean by “trips?”

MY: Taking a senior trip to Washington and New York. Hadn’t that been done in the past?

TR: It had been but we never did it.

MY: Okay.

TR: The only thing we did was, Ms. Arnold – which was Ms. Lloyd; she passed away – she always wanted to go on a senior outing with Ms. [01:13:46] and Ms. Anderson. Ms. Anderson always would go with her. They would go to either the lake – but we didn’t do that but one time because, you know, the Mitchells’ son died in the lake, over at Lake Royale, when he was a young person. [01:14:10] Mitchell?

MY: Right.

TR: So then we started going to Pullen Park in Raleigh. Every year the seniors would get together, we’d get together, the lunchroom would fry us chicken, they didn’t have to carry anything with them, and we’d go to Pullen Park and they intermingled, probably not the first time too much, but after we kept doing they intermingled. They were friends and just getting along real well. I had told them, I said, “Now, you are not to leave this area,” and of course, you know, somebody’s going to slip off. Well, once somebody slipped off and they got some alcohol, so when time came this person was missing. So I said, “Well, we’re going to wait ten more minutes and we’re leaving,” and, lo and behold, thank goodness, the person showed up. He didn’t have to tell me; I knew what he’d been doing. So, Ms. Lloyd was real upset with him, and Ms. Anderson, she let him have it. It was an African American, which doesn’t make any difference, but they talked to him, and so when we got home I had to suspend him.

But we had very few problems. Sometimes they would walk off a little ways, but that was an outing they looked forward to every year. The first year we went on an outing we went to the lake. When we left we stopped at the grocery store. What were those two grocery stores up there, going out on 401?

MY: I don’t know. I don’t remember.

TR: Anyway, I said, “Stop the bus here.” I said, “Y’all are not to get out. I’m going in. I got some business to take care of.” So I went in and I bought them all suckers, bubble gum, things like that, and came back, and they were all just hollering and clapping, you know. So every year that I went on a trip I always took something to give them so they could eat it while they were on the bus, on the way.

MY: Right. I remember in 1971 we went to Williamsburg for a senior trip.

TR: I went, and Charles Edmunds – do you remember him? Was he there then? He was a middle school teacher. Anyway, I think we went more than once, didn’t we? I’d forgotten about that. Yeah, we did make some trips to Williamsburg, the seniors.

MY: I thought that went smoothly.

TR: Very well. We didn’t have any problems with that. It was real good. But, you know, as the years went on, I tried to add a little more things to the agenda.

MY: Right. I want to ask you how you feel, looking back after almost fifty years on this episode, what is your feeling about that whole process and what it means?

TR: Do you mean the time I was principal?

MY: Right, the time you were principal and the integration. Looking back on it, how do you feel about that whole process and what it means for us?

TR: Without a doubt I know that integration, with not only the public schools but with everything, restaurants, churches, I just think that that is one of the greatest things that has happened in my lifetime, because I have heard so many crude things said about blacks, even today, that just turns my stomach. I think we have come a long way in integration but we’ve got a long way to go yet, and some people feel like it’s going down instead of up, that they are not as integrated as they should be, but I still–. I have gained more friends of the African American culture since integration than I had my whole lifetime before, because when I was growing up, during the time we were not integrated, the only blacks that I knew were the ones that helped us in our crops, and they treated us just like their children [01:19:49] a meal that–. Alice Towns was a lady that worked, and she had the best gingerbread cake I ever seen in my life.

But, talking about the public schools, the difference in public schools now and back then, I’ve been working down at Bunn High School for the last eight years as a master teacher, mentoring new teachers when they come in. I mentor them the first, second, and third year. As each period is over I see the students out in the hall and it’s just embarrassing to see – I’m not talking about any one race; it’s all of them – the clothing that they wear and display in school. It’s just a disgrace, and I don’t understand why they don’t enforce it because it is a rule and it’s posted: You will not show any underwear, undergarment, while you’re at Bunn High School. They come way down, unbelievable, and girls, their dresses, oh, it’s just unbelievable. I think you have to go back–. I think it’s the parents. I don’t think it’s the school’s fault. It’s the parents that have brought up this generation and brought them up with just different values, and in the classroom I see discipline taking place [01:21:57 students and teachers teaching at certain times] and they are reluctant to correct them, and I even – although I don’t have the authority – I’ve been out of a classroom and went and got the principal, and I told her, I said, “This one, this one,” I named five, “need to leave class. They have disrupted the whole class.” She said, “Y’all come with me.” The principal, Robin Faulkner, she does not hesitate to discipline.

[Break in recording]

MY: Well, you’re talking about the discipline problems today. That’s one question I had wanted to ask, about parental involvement in the schools, say when you first started at Louisburg High School versus today. Do you see any differences?

TR: I dare say it has dropped fifty percent. Now, I have not been back to Louisburg High School since I retired. The only place I’ve been is to the office to leave some money for my grandchild, but I really have not been back so I do not know. I know what Joyce Griffin has told me about some but I can attest to the ones at Bunn, and you cannot socialize with students.

I have seen–. I had thirteen teachers this past year I mentored, and I had two, always started class off negatively: “You’re not in your seat! You, so-and-so, this is going to cost you a point!” instead of saying, “Good morning, class. Let’s get started on your warm-up and then we’ll get started on the day’s lesson.” No, they come in and they’re hollering and things. I just told them, I said, “As long as you do that you’re not going to have discipline. You’re going to continue having problems.” I said, “You’ve got to be positive, start out on a positive note. If they are misbehaving Ms. Faulkner will take care of that for you.” She’ll either send them home or send them to ISS, or whatever they call it now. And then you go in a class where a teacher is really just full of life and the students are just talking, not real loud, just among themselves, and he’s talking with them, and then he’ll say, “Okay, let’s get settled down now and get to work.” That’s the way he starts his class, and he moves around the whole class, the whole class, and I had three or four teachers like that, that were just fantastic, I thought, and they handled every situation professionally and to the best of the class and the students.

MY: Very good. Well, before we end, I wanted to ask if there’s anything I didn’t ask about that I should have. Is there anything you’d like to add to this chapter about integration?

TR: I don’t know. I think I’ve covered most things. I can tell you this: We integrated schools in ’68, and from ’68 until the time I retired in ’97 as the assistant superintendent, everywhere I go, I don’t care where it is, in Franklin County, even out of town sometimes, I see students that, I cannot remember their name, but they say, “Hey! Mr. Riggan! Do you remember me?” I say, “I remember your face but I cannot remember your name.” I have gotten more black friends and people that I respect. I’m going to give you two examples. Ms. Joyce Green, sweet pea, you know her?

MY: I don't.

TR: She’s the one that goes around and acts as Santa Claus at Christmastime and at Halloween she gives out candy. She absolutely is a jewel, [01:27:48 and she–. That’s Mollie Evans, she had been,] but she’s had a terrible accident and now she’s not able to, but I had all six of her children. One of them would act up a little bit and one day I said, “I’m going to call your mother.” They said, “Do you have to?” I said, “Yeah, I’m going to call her, because you’ve done this before.” So I called Ms. Green and she said, “Mr. Riggan, I’ll be right there, as soon as I can get there.” So, I see her coming, so I call for the student, and I’m in my office and Ms. Green walks in and she says, “Sit down,” and the student said, “Mom, I–.” She said, “Uh-uh. Don’t say a word. If Mr. Riggan said you did it, you did it. Now hush.” [Laughs]

MY: [Laughs]

TR: And they remember it to this day, and this girl told me, she said, “Mr. Riggan, if it had not been for you I would not have gone to nursing school and I would not have made major in the military.” She said, “I owe it all to you because you told me, ‘You can struggle, you can go ahead and keep what you’re doing and you can be working in a cafeteria, but if you apply yourself you can [01:29:07 set the world on fire and] have a good career.’” You know, it makes me feel good to know that I had some – I get good response.

In closing I’ll give you an example. I went to Walmart with my grandson, Riggan. He’s in the ninth grade, and we’re going to get him something. So as I walked in the door this little lady, black lady, said, “Hey, Mr. Riggan, I see you again. You had all six of my children,” and she said, “They loved you to death and I do too. I’m so glad that you were there.” And then my grandson, he said, “Granddaddy, I’m going on down here,” and then I saw probably four or five more and I talked to them, and, you know, I don’t care who, I’m going to talk, unless it’s an emergency, and I talked to about five and my grandson was standing there waiting. So I got what I needed and I went home, and he said, “Grandma, let me tell you something, don’t ever go to Walmart with Granddaddy.” [Laughs]

MY: [Laughs]

TR: He said, “Because you’ll stay two hours.” [Laughs] He said, “Everybody in there knows him and spoke to him.” [Laughs]

MY: Right. Well, that’s a great way to end.

TR: It is, you know, and I would not trade my educational experience and my life for anything I know of. I thought about going to medical school. In fact I had a doctor who I was in Japan with; he was a urologist and I worked with him. I did everything that I was taught to do as a nurse. [Before we left] he said, “Tommy, what are you going to do when you get out of the Navy?” I said, “Well, I really don’t know. I’m thinking of doing something in the medical field or something pertaining to science.” He said, “Well, I tell you what, if you don’t know what you want to do, if you’ll come to Marietta, Georgia I will send you to get any training you want if you’ll work with me and help me in my practice.” He said, “We’ll look after you and take care of you.” So, that made me feel good, but I didn’t really want to–. I got back home and I knew I wanted to go to college, [because in 1950] when I graduated from high school, that little school, with my grades, I said, “I don’t even know whether I can get in college.” That’s when your daddy and Mr. Pruitt came down and sat in my living room and talked to me about what I was going to do, and your daddy offered me a baseball scholarship and he said, “And if you need any other help we’ve got some other things we can do.” I said, “Well, I believe I’ll do it. I’ll sign.” So I did, but then I had to call him and tell him about my daddy having a heart attack and dying, and I had to stay at home and work, so.

MY: Right.

TR: But, you know, also I was raised up in a Christian home. I was raised a Baptist. My dad was superintendent of the Sunday school for years and years. I don’t care what you had planned for Sunday, you went to Sunday school and you went to church. Sometimes our car wouldn’t start. It was one mile, and we walked to church and Sunday school and came home, and we did not do anything until we had eaten, gone to church, come back and had lunch, and [they said], “Now you can go play ball if you want to.” So we’d go out there and play ball together, and we’d go up to some of the friends around. So, I was raised to respect everybody regardless of their creed, color, race, doesn’t make any difference: you respect them. They may not respect you all the time but you respect them, and it’s not your fault if they don’t respond to you. But everywhere I’ve been, the Navy, school, here or at East Carolina, I’ve always just been a happy person and just enjoyed life, and, Maury, I’ll be eighty-three years old next June.

MY: Oh, my goodness. I wouldn’t have guessed.

TR: [Laughs] And still in education, and I say every year, I say, “Well, I’m not going to do it this year,” but come August I say, “Well, I’ll go one more year.” [Laughs] But I’ve enjoyed life. We’ve done a lot of traveling. We’ve been to Alaska, to Canada, we’ve been to all the New England states and out west, and my wife went to Africa on a mission trip three or four years ago, and she was the only one from Louisburg that went. It was to Rwanda where they have a lot of sickness and people don’t have jobs and things. So, she visited, and she’s going again this August with Dr. La Branche and his wife.

MY: Oh, Good.

TR: Those three are going together with a group. They’re flying out on August 4, I think. But my daughter is real upset. She does not want them to go. You’ve been hearing so much lately about airplanes having to [01:35:59 force land], you know, she’s just not–. So I said, “You know, Martha, when you’re in the Lord’s hands, if something happens, you know, it’s not your fault. You were doing what you wanted to do and you were doing what the Lord wants you to do.” I said, “So, I’ll let you go, I will support you, and Genie does not want you to go but she will be praying for you and hoping that you [01:35:32].” But we’re doing a real–. [01:35:38] we took a hundred and fifteen orphans – and it’s called the ZOE, Z-O-E, group – [01:35:52 to the] Methodists up at Raleigh, that’s where they’re from, and they–. In order to sponsor them you have to commit to seven thousand five hundred dollars a year for three years, and, do you know, we have already–. This is just the fifth month in the second year and we’ve already reached our goal.

MY: Wow.

TR: Our church is having money problems but for this, people are just responding, and we’ll be way over the goal when we get there, and my wife is so excited. She’s buying clothes, and they’re going to do some banners, and we took pictures at the church Sunday and all.

MY: Very good.

TR: So, I don’t mean to be detaining you. [Laughs]

MY: That’s all right. Thank you for doing this interview. I really appreciate it.

TR: Well, I did the best I could.

END OF INTERVIEW

Transcriber: Deborah Mitchum
Date: July 5, 2015